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The Sandbox works best if you sort posts by "active" (click here to do so).

Welcome to the Sandbox!

This "Sandbox" is a place where Worldbuilding.SE users can get feedback on prospective questions they wish to post. This is useful, because new and experienced users can have trouble writing a clear and fully specified question.

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Occasionally a Sandbox question is abandoned. While crafting the question, you may discover the answer. Or you may realize that the question's basic premise can't be expressed within the rules of Worldbuilding.SE. You may also simply forget that you have a question in the Sandbox. If you decide to abandon the question:

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Please be aware that questions without activity (edits to your question or comments left by you) for more than one month may be judged abandoned and removed. We'll leave a comment or two to get your attention, but eventually, forgotten questions will be cleaned up and deleted.

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See the Sandbox FAQ for more information on how to use the Sandbox.

Maintenance

This section is referred to when a new sandbox is created. In order to make the Sandbox easier to use, a new Sandbox question will be posted when the old one becomes too full (between 75 and 100 sandbox questions).

Whomever creates the new page: be sure you want to be actively involved with the Sandbox, because until it gets replaced in the future, you'll be notified of every proposed question and every comment.

(A) Update this previous sandbox list:

The previous sandbox post should be locked as obsolete by a moderator and renamed to "Inactive Sandbox [Date]." Please add a link to the top of the old sandbox page to the new Sandbox.

If there are active questions in the old Sandbox, leave a comment for the users indicating that the old sandbox is closing and they either need to wrap up (preferred) or re-post the question in the new Sandbox.

(B) Update these links after the new Sandbox is created:

(C) Create the "Graduated Question List" answer and mark it a "Community Wiki."

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  • 2
    $\begingroup$ I have locked the previous sandboxes as "obsolete". This should avoid confusion with the duplicate, since they hardly have the same content. For future reference, just flag the to-be-closed sandbox for mod attention requesting it to be obsoleted. $\endgroup$
    – L.Dutch Mod
    Dec 11, 2022 at 18:44
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ Reminder to readers : Please do not vote on proposed questions. At least 2 persons/accounts skipped the sandbox's rules recently. For everyone's sake please read them and apply them carefully. $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Dec 30, 2022 at 22:51
  • $\begingroup$ Maintenance question: is it appropriate to up/downvote a proposed question to get it to zero? $\endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    Mar 2 at 6:28
  • $\begingroup$ @elemtilas I do. People aren't supposed to be voting and bias of any kind isn't the point here, but it's hard to break a habit. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Mar 5 at 1:03
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ @elemtilas :-) Your edit is the third time "please don't vote" is mentioned in the post. I'm OK with it... but I doubt anything will change. Based on how users use the Sandbox, very few of them read the instructions. C'est la vie. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Mar 6 at 19:38
  • $\begingroup$ @JBH --- I didn't see the third one! (oops!) I figured that if the message were closer to the top, it might get seen and processed early on. $\endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    Mar 7 at 3:22
  • $\begingroup$ Question : What should be done when no one comments under your post? Should the question follow the sandbox procedure (->adding it to the question list, etc.), or should it be discarded silently and posted on main, without any link to the sandbox? $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Jun 1 at 7:15
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ @Tortliena You've discovered the weakness in the system. The Sandbox only works when a bunch of people are regularly participating. That was once true - but today few have the time to participate. I'd hate to suggest that the Sandbox's time has come and gone, but were I a querent with an unaddressed question in the Sandbox after 30 or 60 days, I'd post it on Main - and if anybody complained on Main, I'd post a link back to the Sandbox with the question, "where've you been?" $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Jun 1 at 7:25
  • $\begingroup$ @JBH I'll follow your advice ^^. This also implies I can't get my own questions reviewed, since it looks like I'm kinda the last one here 🦋. I can almost hear the tumbleweeds rolling, western movie style 😅. $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Jun 1 at 13:46
  • $\begingroup$ @Tortliena It seriously hurt the value of the Sandbox when our Stack Exchange Overlords decided to discontinue the community ads. That was how we kept people reminded to stop in. Those ads were very effective. I assume SE wanted the space for monetization purposes, but that's only a pessimistic guess. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Jun 1 at 15:51
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    $\begingroup$ I concur: if a query has sat here uncommented on, the OP is well within rights to post it on main, and if anyone there complains, put it back on them that they didn't help when help was sought. $\endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    Jun 1 at 17:39

16 Answers 16

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What's the next species to be domesticated by humans

So, in my world-building project, 700 years in the future, humanity has advanced to the point of having a small interstellar empire. This is all just back story, I just want help writing this question:

What's the next species to be likely domesticated by humans?

  • Foxes and Hedgehogs, domesticated in the 1950s and 1980s respectively, have at this point become common pets on earth, foxes being even popular alternatives to dogs in interstellar colonization do too (REASON UNDETERMINED)
  • Personal candidates: Capybaras, reindeer (only partly domesticated), Corvids, Leopord Gekos, Bearded dragons, and most common Exotic pets
  • I really have no idea on how to ask this question or even where in the wider Stack Exchange network this would really fit into
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    $\begingroup$ (a) By definition, the next one will be the Russian Red Fox, which is well enough along that it could claim official domestication within the next 20-30 years. In other words, what research have you done to determine ongoing domestication efforts? (b) Otherwise, this is a (VTC) story-based question. The next domesticated animal is the one your story needs to forward its plot. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Feb 6 at 5:43
  • $\begingroup$ Is this sandbox post still active? $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Mar 1 at 17:13
  • $\begingroup$ I have no idea. $\endgroup$
    – redfrogcrab
    Mar 1 at 17:14
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    $\begingroup$ I'm disappointed that no one has stepped in to give you more insight. I'd like to go put a "we need help in the sandbox!" post on Meta. Do you want to wait for that and see if we can get more comments? $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Mar 1 at 17:24
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    $\begingroup$ @JBH yeah, that'll work $\endgroup$
    – redfrogcrab
    Mar 1 at 19:28
  • $\begingroup$ I would consider the reasons, as near as we can figure thousands of years later, why certain animals were domesticated in the first place. Sheep = wool and meat; goats = independent, meat & milk; dogs = partnership; foxes = because we can. And then move that rationale forward: consider your space faring tech level and infrastructure; what are the needs of colonial systems if any; what other sophonts have they met; what niches actually need to be filled; which animals are most likely to even be domesticable. When you get some of the background information sorted, then it just becomes (cont) $\endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    Mar 2 at 5:56
  • $\begingroup$ (cont) a matter of formatting your question. Generally the Four Point Question format (Background, Pertinent Information, Restatement of Question, Criteria & Considerations for the Respondent) works best. You've already got B, your opening paragraph and first bullet point. PI will be some of the things I asked you to consider. R will an amplification of your marquee / title question. C&C will be where you tell us respondents what you're actually looking for. If you like capybaras and reindeer, this is where you'll tell us. $\endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    Mar 2 at 6:00
  • $\begingroup$ @JBH --- Foxes are soooo cuwute! $\endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    Mar 2 at 6:00
  • $\begingroup$ Is this Sandbox question still active? $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Jun 25 at 19:53
  • $\begingroup$ Since this is the sandbox, go ahead and tell the backstory, because it's really impossible to predict the next domesticated species in general, and absolutely impossible if we don't know the state of humanity of the earth. Depending on your story, some species may have gone extinct, some may have vanished from desertification, or ocean rise, or some hay have become valuable for medicinal or environmental reasons. A world can't be built without a story. In your story, what is broken that you need a new pet 700 years into the future? $\endgroup$
    – Vogon Poet
    Aug 22 at 5:26
  • $\begingroup$ Final call... is this question still active? $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Oct 26 at 18:18
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I know I have another question being refined here. I'm not abandoning it.

Anyway, How would the coastlines of a chemical sea on a planet with extreme winds form? has the premise of a good question. Details are provided, but it's almost impossible to read and understand what the questioner actually wanted, so I'm gonna take a crack at making it more readable.

How would these weather conditions affect the structure of a chemical sea's coastlines?

On a particularly windy Earth-like planet, there is a sea with the following traits:

  • Size roughly equal to that of the Caspian Sea
  • Composition similar to Lake Natron, caused by the extreme density of chemicals in the soil, with some contribution from vents.

The main weather patterns on that planet are as follows:

  • A permanent cyclone in the planet's polar region, wind traveling south over the sea
  • A secondary permanent cyclone encircles the inside of the basin in a counter-clockwise direction, creating the local wind currents.

The lake itself has sediment beaches, and the beaches are encircled by rocky cliffs.

Given these conditions, how would the coastlines of this lake change over time? How would the cliffs shift on the lee and windward sides?

I assume deep gouges would first form in the windward cliffs, eventually disintegrating into nothing the closer they get to the shore, with huge drifts of chemical-salt formations, but I am uncertain how the lee side (the shore closest to the wind source) would be affected. I have thus far written it as an even slope with relatively mild geography in the shadow of the cliff. However, I also assume that on all sides there are counter-clockwise "scoops" of stone and arches, either of more chemical formations or cliff stone, with larger drifts of sediment on the Eastern shore, caused by sand pounding the more stable cliff-rock.

Tags remain the same, but ìnternal-consistency or science-based could be added. Not sure which, both have merit in the situation.

I also think that the way I structured the information at the start is a little clunky, feel free to edit.

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  • $\begingroup$ Please only focus on revising one question at a time. We're volunteering out time to provide feedback, and help you learn how to ask good questions. Work with us to get one question to a good state at a time. $\endgroup$
    – sphennings
    Apr 4 at 4:31
  • $\begingroup$ Is this Sandbox question still active? $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Jun 25 at 20:00
  • $\begingroup$ Final call... is this question still active? $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Oct 26 at 18:17
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This question may be part of the anatomically correct series, although as a new user I'm not sure.

In a Earth-like setting, what differences from real slime molds would this organism have? The defining characteristics of this organism are:

  1. living underground (a few centimeters or more)
  2. covering a vast area like Pando does (either alone, or more plausibly in a vast colony)
  3. having its spores spread aboveground (bigger and taller than real sime molds)
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  • $\begingroup$ I'm not sure how we can help you here :/. Let's disregard the fact you already state one difference in your question (spores being bigger/taller). What prevents you from checking some sources (wikipedia, youtube, books...) and check each of their attribute : Size, growth, feeding/reproduction method(s), resistances...? Indeed you know the best how you want your organism to be : If you give us enough details, you will already have enough to answer your own question, since... Well, you made it and I believe you took inspiration from said slime molds ^^". $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Apr 1 at 9:52
  • $\begingroup$ @TortlienaI I understand perfectly. Maybe I can ask specifically how can slime molds live underground? $\endgroup$
    – lollo259
    Apr 1 at 10:01
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    $\begingroup$ @Iollo259 Yes, as long as it's your version of the slime mold and not the real world one ^^. $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Apr 1 at 10:27
  • $\begingroup$ The Anatomically Correct Series deals with a quasi-naturalistic quasi-evolution of reasonably classic creatures from myth, fantasy and sci-fi, etc. As such, you could certainly cast your question in that mold. Looking at what you've got, I agree with Tortliena, that this would almost certainly be met with comments along the lines of "let me google that for you". What we'd really like to see is a question that offers some kind of worldbuilding problem that needs solving. Maybe an evil mage has weaponised the slimemolds for use in his amusement dungeons and now they've escaped! (cont) $\endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    Apr 1 at 16:47
  • $\begingroup$ (cont) Or perhaps one kind of people relies on the slime molds as domesticated sources of X. But another kind of people live nearby who are preyed on or affected by the slime molds. How might they resolve the problem. $\endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    Apr 1 at 16:51
  • $\begingroup$ Is this Sandbox question still active? $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Jun 25 at 19:53
  • $\begingroup$ Final call... is this question still active? $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Oct 26 at 18:17
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[reserved]

How can a type II civilization harvest energy from supernovae?

Background:

As seen in this question, planetary objects surviving a supernova is a laughable concept without handwavium. The amount of energy being dumped by a supernova so ludicrously enormous that we have a hard time conceptualizing it.

Neutron stars output almost all their energy in neutrinos. The rest is in plasma remnants of the original star, or light generated during the process.

Of course, someone comes along and decides they need that energy. Assuming that they are somewhere past Type II on the Kardashev scale, how exactly would they go about this?

Requirements to consider the supernova harvested:

  • The greater part of energy produced by the supernova needs to be harvested.
  • Equipment can be single-use.
  • Remnant materials do not need to be harvested; as the civilization already does such things on a regular.

Answers cannot include:

  • Engineering the nova to not take place. Compressing it into a black hole and waiting until the heat death of the universe to get your energy back in a trickle of Hawking radiation is not helpful.
  • Extensive use of warping space; this method is going to be inherently inefficient.
  • Generous amounts of MumboJumbonium. Explanations need to be at least partly based in science (E.g. each collector is a stack of neutrinovoltaic cells that will be ablated away in the aftershock.)

Assumptions:

  • Computer hardware is hardened against neutrino radiation that "leaks" through the collectors.
  • Materials science is considerably advanced(Metamaterials are common in-universe) -The civilization is capable of the automated construction of normal Dyson swarms, usually via disassembly of planetary bodies, but rarely, via lifting matter from the star itself.

Proposed tags: supernovas, megastructures, [JBH suggested changing science-based to science-fiction]

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  • $\begingroup$ Are you actually looking for a science-based solution to a problem so far beyond our current technology that it's "indistinguishable from magic?" E.G., the Alcubierre drive is a mathematical hypothesis, not a technological fact. That hypothesis does not grant us insight into how such a drive can be built. I'm thinking this question violates the help center's book rule: too many issues must be addressed to have a science-fiction level answer. This is not a specific question, which is required by the help center. You're asking us to invent an entire technology. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Mar 24 at 5:39
  • $\begingroup$ Let me address all that in a different way. What's your goal or expectation for asking this question? What are you going to do with the result? Let's say you wanted to know how to get energy from radioactive rods. Are you looking for this kind of answer, which would make sense for worldbuilding, or this kind of answer, which doesn't? $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Mar 24 at 5:42
  • $\begingroup$ So it was an infinite list problem. I think these problems could be solved by changing the question from "How" to "Can" and axing most of the background, as it's irrelevant, and as you said, detrimental to the usage of science-based $\endgroup$
    – The Commander
    Mar 24 at 12:01
  • $\begingroup$ Okay @JBH I did some recollection: the reason I want to harvest the energy is computational power. Such a thing was very briefly touched on in the linked answer(linking to another answer). $\endgroup$
    – The Commander
    Mar 25 at 4:15
  • $\begingroup$ @TheCommander I concur with JBH; The "infinite-list" feeling comes from the fact that it's very likely far beyond anyone's real world knowledge. This leads to a state where no answer using real world would be believable, meaning the only viable solution is to draw from the infinite source which is imagination :). Your proposal could work, just be sure to delimit clearly what you want to be checked vs what we should accept without ever complaining it would not work that way (#Frame-challenge). $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Mar 25 at 19:51
  • $\begingroup$ @Tortliena so adding a list of things an answer cannot include would help out in narrowing it, correct? $\endgroup$
    – The Commander
    Mar 25 at 20:02
  • $\begingroup$ Added a few no-gos and clarified the list into do's and don'ts. $\endgroup$
    – The Commander
    Mar 25 at 20:12
  • $\begingroup$ @Tortliena assumptions added as well; I am now drawing blanks. Perhaps you could dream up a frame challenge that works around my question? $\endgroup$
    – The Commander
    Mar 25 at 20:18
  • $\begingroup$ @TheCommander We're not on the same page ^^". I was talking about changing your question from "how to do it?" to "I have made this technomagic system, is this specific concept of it scientifically plausible (ie. can it be done?)?". This kind of question could be useful if you just want to explain/justify one part to make the whole believable, like using cold fusion power to explain how giants mechs are standing (disregarding for instance how it would crumble on itself without moving). $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Mar 27 at 11:17
  • $\begingroup$ @Tortliena so what I'm getting is: Change from "how to do it" to "Can I do it, given the following circumstances?" $\endgroup$
    – The Commander
    Mar 28 at 4:13
  • $\begingroup$ @TheCommander It's even more than circumstances; Think of this as an internal-consistency question : You invented something from the ground-up, and you want a specific part of it to be checked. "E.g. : I made a giant glass bottle house to live in. Disregarding how it would be made and in theory, would using wooden counterforts help make it support its own weight?" Emphasis on "in theory" : the idea is to work with the principle, as you will surely get downvoted (lacking research) if you ask to put a theory into a very, very impractical but concrete case, to say the least :). $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Mar 29 at 23:34
  • $\begingroup$ comment purge probably necessary now; also @Tortliena edited to your suggestions. $\endgroup$
    – The Commander
    Apr 11 at 1:57
  • $\begingroup$ I have to take a step back from WB:SE for a while, something rather unpleasant happened. Do you have the time to have a look back @JBH... Or any other lucky one who read this comment? $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Apr 17 at 8:00
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    $\begingroup$ @Tortliena I can take this. Sorry to hear about the unpleasantness. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Apr 17 at 8:13
  • $\begingroup$ I've read the current question and the comments. You're close. What's missing at this point is a set of clear marching orders for respondents. The only practical answer to "Can a type II civilization harvest energy from supernovae?" is "yes." In other words, that's not a practical question to ask. Per the help center, questions must be specific and answerable. From your list of conditions and limitations, it appears you're asking, "how can a type II civ harvest...?" If that's correct, then we need to find the best way to express the question without it sounding like brainstorming. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Apr 17 at 8:23
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How Do I Re-edit this question to make it more suitable?

TITLE: What is the safest spot for the Achilles heel mark for a warrior?

Context:

Most people are familiar with Achilles. The near indestructible Homeric hero whose one weak point on his whole body was one of his ankle/heels.

According to one myth, that's where his mother, Thetis, held him while dipping him in River Styx. I have read another one, where she kept him on burning fire but Achilles was prematurely pulled out of it via his ankle.

In Trojan Wars, Apollo guided Paris to strike Achilles on his otherwise vulnerable heel, thus killing him.

Background:

An ancient Geek warrior falls in the River Styx (A/N: why and how are irrelevant). Somehow, they survive and achieve Achilles' invulnerability. With invulnerability comes an Achilles heel. However, they can choose where to have this fatal weakness.

Question: Where is the best place to have an actual Achilles heel on one's body for a Greek-era warrior?

What is fatal to Achilles heel?

It is a circular spot of diameter 1.2 cm. It is not so sensitive that a slight poke from a finger or a little prick there would kill the person. This weak spot could stand light scratches and skin grazes. If injured deep enough, it is like a kill switch. Even if the point happens to be in place, if struck in normal condition, the person would have easily survived the wound.

Requirement and Considerations:

  • The person is a warrior.

  • The Achilles heel has to be well protected to not be harmed in such situations: war, skirmish or duels.

  • The Achilles heel spot neither leave visible mark nor feels different from normal skin.

  • The warrior can only use Greek-era armor and clothes. They can not use extra protection if it is easily visible to an enemy and might arouse curiosity.

  • Note, invulnerability is a highly visible power. After some time opponents would cotton on that this warrior is similar to Achilles and would try to actively find his Achilles Heel spot.

Considering the outfit, weapons, and fighting style of the ancient Greek era, pick the best point to have an Achilles' Weak Spot and provide an explanation to support your answer.

I have edited my question according to helpful directions given by reviewers. Does this constitute a well asked question? Should I structure my question more before it is good enough for main site.

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  • $\begingroup$ Unfortunately your question is fundamentally inappropriate for this site. You're not attempting to establish some fact about your world. The rules of your world are already established and you're asking about what a specific character will do within your world. The question is also structurally unsound. Stack Exchange is designed for questions with specific answers. Your question currently reads more like a discussion prompt than something that's going to have a single objectively better answer. While you could make edits to contort this to fit on WB I'd recommend against that. $\endgroup$
    – sphennings
    May 3 at 7:27
  • $\begingroup$ @ Avani Sphennings is the stricter one among us. There's definitely potential, but you need to turn your question around a bit so that people cannot nitpick it's story-based (what sphennings raised). For that, you should rephrase your question to something akin to "What is the safest spot for the Achilles heel mark for (I presume) a warrior?". That way you'll move the subjectivity of choosing to a more objective criterium (it's like the question "where was the location you risked to be hit the most in ancient times?"). $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    May 3 at 11:10
  • $\begingroup$ You should also perhaps focus on a specific combat type (duels, full-sized battles...). Emphasis on "perhaps", I won't be torn in pieces if you don't do that :). $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    May 3 at 11:21
  • $\begingroup$ Then the tips below are true everywhere you are asking this question, even outside WB:SE : Does the character know they have the Achilles's mark, ie. can they add protection to this spot? What is the minimal surface area/size of the spot roughly : like you imprinted the bottom of a teacup on the skin, a bit more, less? This should clarify your constraints a little more ^^. $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    May 3 at 14:23
  • $\begingroup$ @Tortliena Thanks for your suggestions. I have fixed the post. Is it better structured now? $\endgroup$
    – Avani
    May 3 at 16:15
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ @Avani --- This looks much better to me. It is no longer story based; you've got a focused query with sufficient detail for it to be reasonably objectively answered. The only thing I would suggest really doesn't have anything to do with your question: this isn't really much of an "Achilles heel" if the warrior is not actually vulnerable. Someone has to know where it is in order for the story to work properly. Otherwise, you've just got a character who is highly resistant to common weapons and the injuries they make. $\endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    May 3 at 22:36
  • $\begingroup$ @elemtilas Thanks for feedback. I will be changing that point. $\endgroup$
    – Avani
    May 4 at 0:35
  • $\begingroup$ @Avani I took the extreme (:p) freedom of fixing a typo (invulenrability -> invulnerability). I don't have much to add, and this current version passes my closure vote with ease, and likely the others's too ^^. $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    May 4 at 16:38
  • $\begingroup$ Is this Sandbox question still active? $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Jun 25 at 19:59
  • $\begingroup$ (Why was this made a community wiki?) Final call... is this question still active? $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Oct 26 at 18:16
0
$\begingroup$

Would we be able to detect anything when observing the area through which our universe and another universe (aligned perpendicularly in the 4th dimension) intersect?

The concept of a 4th spatial dimension allowing for an infinite number of 3-dimensional universes is something I've long thought of as being interesting. The logical throughput is that you can fit an infinite number of dots in a line, an infinite number of lines in a square, an infinite number of squares in a cube, and therefore an infinite number of cubes in a hypercube. As such, assuming them to be aligned parallel to one another, an infinite number of 3-dimensional universes could fit within a 4-dimensional space.

For the purposes of this question, I am assuming there to be only two 3-dimensional universes in 4-dimensional space, which are not aligned parallel to another, but instead perpendicular to one another. If we align two lines perpendicular with one another (in 2-d space), their intersection makes a 0 dimensional dot. If we align two squares perpendicular with one another (in 3-d space), their intersection makes a 1-dimensional line. If we align two cubes perpendicular with one another (in 4-d space), their intersection makes a 2-d square. As such, two 3-d universes aligned perpendicular with one another and intersecting in 4d space should have a 2 dimensional boundary. Assuming this to be the case in our own universe, is there any way for us to detect this boundary? Could we tell if objects from the other universe were passing through the boundary (while remaining in their own universe)? Or would this go entirely unnoticed by us according to our current understanding of physics?

The reason I am asking is that I am wondering if anything interesting could be done with this concept in worldbuilding, or if its a moot point.

tags: physics, (i cant think of any others)

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24
  • $\begingroup$ Is this question within the scope of the site? Would it be better asked on the physics se? Would they even accept a question like this? $\endgroup$
    – M S
    Jun 24 at 16:35
  • $\begingroup$ I think it unlikely physics SE would take this one gently. Trying to understand your cosmology here. Why bother saying these 3d universes exist in a single structure if two "adjacent" ones do not interact. That their particles are confined to 3 dims, rather than bleeding into the 4 dims. That topology is discrete, and kinda resembles some quantum multiverse ideas. $\endgroup$
    – BMF
    Jun 24 at 17:47
  • $\begingroup$ If the physics in the other universe are different from ours, you might get a domain wall sort of ordeal at the boundary. Crossing over might not be possible, or if so could be an energetic event, maybe even destroying one or both universe's depending on the domain walls' stability. $\endgroup$
    – BMF
    Jun 24 at 17:49
  • $\begingroup$ @BMF i don't think adjacent is necessarily the right term, as the universes are not merely near eachother but intersect one another, in the same way the two lines making the + symbol intersect one another. I am saying they are in the same 'structure' (by which I assume you mean the 4d space they are in) because if they were not, they could not intersect and therefore there would be no 2d boundary between the two of them. I was intending for the two universes to interact, but in writing my comment I realized that topologically it only makes sense for the boundary to be 2d, not 3d $\endgroup$
    – M S
    Jun 24 at 17:57
  • $\begingroup$ @BMF I am also intending for both universes to have the exact same set of physics $\endgroup$
    – M S
    Jun 24 at 17:57
  • $\begingroup$ In that case there might be some subtleties in physics that might produce big obvious effects. A near infinitely sharp boundary around the 2d section might act horizon-like and emit a lot of radiation. Not sure how field lines would behave around it. $\endgroup$
    – BMF
    Jun 24 at 18:26
  • $\begingroup$ As for whether the question should be graduated, there's ambiguities that I think some might get worked up about. The kind that usually crop up on Q's that ask about theoretical physics that can't really be helped. I'd wait for someone else's opinion about it because I'm not too sure how to improve it, or whether it's already good to go. $\endgroup$
    – BMF
    Jun 24 at 18:31
  • $\begingroup$ @BMF Thanks for the help $\endgroup$
    – M S
    Jun 24 at 19:50
  • $\begingroup$ My first reaction to the question would be "yes, by the untold devestation that was left behind." Most analyses of dimensional intersections fail to take two things into account: (a) the solidity of the confluence, those two universes are moving each with a velocity and the objects within them at more complex velocities. There's a lot of space inside a universe, but where contact was made, it would be devestating. (b) There is no example of 2D or 1D objects. They don't exist insofar as we know. So we have no evidence of what would happen in either direction, making this question opinion-based. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Jun 25 at 16:14
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ Having said that, I recommend rewording your question to one of "I want rule X in my world, here is what I have so far, but I'm stumped by Y. What can I do to get past Y?" From a certain point of view, it feels like you already know what you want to do and you're looking for some kind of validation to be comfortable with it. That's the problem of having no evidence of 2D or 1D objects.... there isn't any validation. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Jun 25 at 16:21
  • $\begingroup$ @JBH a) what is the reasoning behind the boundary being devastating, or the boundary itself being solid? b) I don't see how the nonexistence of 1 or 2 dimensional objects has any bearing on my question. They are only mentioned in my question as lower dimensions are easier to visualize and understand, and help demonstrate the logic behind two intersecting 3d universes having a 2d boundary. Regarding your second comment, I think you must be misunderstanding my question (or I am misunderstanding your comment), as I find the entire comment rather confusing (as I don't know what rule X... (cont) $\endgroup$
    – M S
    Jun 25 at 18:26
  • $\begingroup$ @JBH (cont)... problem Y, or the relevance of 1d and 2d objects not existing are). I am asking whether, according to our current understanding of theoretical physics, the setup stated in my question (two universes intersecting one another in 4d space) would be detectable to an inhabitant of either universe (and if so, what they would detect). I am not asking for someone to validate whether the setup itself could possibly exist. $\endgroup$
    – M S
    Jun 25 at 18:26
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ Devestation: Everything's in motion. The idea that the coincidence of two 3D objects moving in 4D space being stationary is totally contrary to what we know of science. An object standing still in relation to the ground of Earth is actually moving a a whomping high velocity through space. Bringing two objects from two universes together (which are both solid...) without causing at least fission-level devestation is unrealistic. Considering the way you wrote your question (which isn't a way that works well for this site), realism is what you're trying to achieve. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Jun 25 at 19:42
  • $\begingroup$ 1D/2D Realism And the issue of realism brings us to the reality that, to the best of humanity's knowledge, there are no such things as 1D or 2D objects. They exist only mathematically and are applicable only in a practical sense because we can see or perceive the effect of being 1D or 2D (such as looking only at one face of a cube, it looks 2D). If you're striving for "realism" then you're stuck with the fact that since there isn't 1D or 2D, there isn't 4D either, and so the rules governing the intersection of two such universes are totally up to you, the worldbuilder. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Jun 25 at 19:44
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ What's our sweet spot? Our sweet spot is when a worldbuilder comes to us and asks, "I want to see the following particular effect, {explain effect in detail} under the following conditions, {explain conditions in detail}. What examples from the Real World can I use to help me model that effect in my imaginary world?" That's worldbuilding. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Jun 25 at 19:49
0
$\begingroup$

Stars in Alien Skys

So for various plot reasons, belief in astrology plays a large part in the story. I am well aware I could make up my own star patterns or exclude them and just refer to the symbols and have a similar effect, but ultimately my desire is to make the star placements as realistic as possible.

Now with that disclaimer out of the way, my question is what method or formulas can I use to calculate what stars would be visible and what configurations they would be looking up from the surface? I also understand that atmosphere and other phenomena can affect what is seen, so to make this as simple as possible the default assumptions for these questions would be ideal conditions, as if you were viewing with zero atmosphere. The only conditions I am concerned with is the location and where everything would be placed based on that location.

Is there a formula or other method that can accomplish this?

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11
  • $\begingroup$ Are you wanting to make up your own constellations or will the constellations of earth suffice? What exactly do you mean by "realistic star placement"? $\endgroup$
    – sphennings
    Aug 2 at 20:59
  • $\begingroup$ @sphennings I would like to make up new ones based on how the stars would look from other planets, to the best of our knowledge, I know we can’t know what it would look like without actually standing on the surface $\endgroup$
    – Amoeba
    Aug 2 at 21:33
  • $\begingroup$ I've changed my mind about how I want to approach your question. This question is the type we like to see on Main, but you've done no research for yourself. Please do so (I know there are at least two Milky Way databases out there). The down-arrow mouse roll-over specifically states, "This question does not show any research effort" and you should expect down votes if you don't explain what research you did and why it didn't solve your problem. A hint, though... there is not a formula to solve this problem. There are formulae. Many many formulae that would take (*Continued*) $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Aug 3 at 0:44
  • $\begingroup$ ... a bigger computer than the one on your desk to process. So you're looking to see if any of those databases include the ability to build a night sky view from the perspective of a star in the database. You might need to contact the database owners and ask. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Aug 3 at 0:46
  • $\begingroup$ @JBH that’s a fair criticism, I haven’t made the research I have don’t apparent, but I have done research, specifically on how astrology works as a well as looking for stellar atlas’s, but so far all I have found are websites like Atlas of the Universe which ends up missing stars and I also don’t even know how translate a 3D map like a 2D view of the sky from another planet, if there is somewhere I can research this more please do tel as I have no success in finding much. $\endgroup$
    – Amoeba
    Aug 3 at 1:51
  • $\begingroup$ One of the rules of the Sandbox is that we're not supposed to answer in the Sandbox. But I suspect I can drop a link or two to help you do a bit more before posting on Main. It's important that you realize a few things. (a) There is no atlas that contains all the stars in the galaxy. None, zero, nada. That's OK for us, we're in the business of building imaginary worlds. Please be sure it's OK for you. (b) There may not be a publically available engine to do what you're doing, but that doesn't mean it's not there. (*Continued*) $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Aug 3 at 3:06
  • $\begingroup$ ... real research means asking questions. Many users (especially new users) think Stack Exchange is a free research site. That's is not the case. SE's model is a place where educated and experienced people can come to ask other educated and experienced people for help dealing with things that are a bit outside their own experience. That model is stretched (considerably) on Worldbuilding because, let's face it, no one is an expert on Magic. But that basic presumption lingers on and it's right that it does. You should contact the atlas people (*Continued*) $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Aug 3 at 3:08
  • $\begingroup$ ... and ask them for their help. (I'm pretty sure) they don't haunt our halls, and they're the most educated and experienced in the field. We love helping people solve their problems, but what we really love doing is helping people become more practiced worldbuilders - and if you're going to focus on realism, that means asking for help everywhere. Finally (c) just to set an expectation, you're not going to get a perfect night sky view from any planet - even Earth. The databases, large as they are, simply are not that complete. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Aug 3 at 3:10
  • $\begingroup$ Start with this post and all of its answers from our sister Stack, then move on to the Gaia Archive. This gets your foot in the door. Google "catalog of stars" and "database of stars" to find smaller databases. Ask questions! Keeping in mind that while the database could be used to get where you want, it's possible but unlikely it has. So set your expectations. Even if you don't discover a solution, explaining everything you did to discover that goes a long way to the credibility of your quesiton. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Aug 3 at 3:27
  • $\begingroup$ I will add that there is a 3d point model of the Milky Way galaxy online, which any 3d modeller can move a camera inside of to simply snapshot the new sky at any angle. It would be an .STL file or .OBJ file. Likely there are more out there. $\endgroup$
    – Vogon Poet
    Aug 22 at 6:45
  • $\begingroup$ Is this question still active? $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Oct 26 at 18:15
0
$\begingroup$

No Zombie Cannibalism Allowed!

So we have a virus that turns people into technically living zombies. They need to breathe, eat, drink and sleep just like a normal human. However due to limbic system damage caused by the virus they are ALWAYS extremely hangry, so they get the compulsion to murder unaffected people in cold blood and eat their corpses. Yeesh.

Eventually the cities got overrun with zombies and no healthy humans were left, but strangely the infected never attack each other, no matter how badly starved and hangry they become. They would rather sit down in the shades beside a wall and slowly waste away rather than try to hunt other zombies for food.

What's stopping these zombies from resorting to eating one another? Somewhere on this site someone else wrote that zombies release hormones so they can identify each other as 'friendlies' when they smell the hormone from each other, but zombies can't have a sense of smell (Just like Covid patients!) here to make the story work, and even if they did I doubt that they would care because of how hangry they are.

tags: science-based, creature-design, disease, zombies

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17
  • $\begingroup$ I'm pretty sure we've had similar questions in the past. From what I remember, diseased individuals are just unlikely to go for other diseased individuals. It's not in the disease's advantage, otherwise they'd quickly destroy each other and massively reduce the infection threat. $\endgroup$
    – VLAZ
    Aug 3 at 7:32
  • $\begingroup$ With that said, I don't think pheromones depend on the sense of smell. Anosmia just means you can't detect smells because the smell receptors are out of commission. However, if you have no sense of smell and you inhale smoke, you're still going to have bad physiological reaction. Just wouldn't be able to detect the smoke with your nose. In somewhat similar manner, pheromones cause a chemical reaction. Not just reaction to odor stimuli. $\endgroup$
    – VLAZ
    Aug 3 at 7:35
  • $\begingroup$ @VLAZ Can you give me a link for the similar question? $\endgroup$
    – Hi0401
    Aug 3 at 9:24
  • $\begingroup$ worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/a/71837 worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/a/149528 worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/q/23794 Just few I found from a cursory search. $\endgroup$
    – VLAZ
    Aug 3 at 10:08
  • $\begingroup$ god damn does that mean i have to delete this question?? $\endgroup$
    – Hi0401
    Aug 3 at 10:39
  • $\begingroup$ Brainstorming is discouraged here. Why doesn't the very obvious "infected flesh has reduced/no nutritional value" not solve the problem? @vlaz's link #2 points out that viruses want to spread, so eating the infected only serves one purpose (if the flesh is edible). Explaining why the obvious solutions don't solve your problem would go a long way to perfecting the question. I'm afraid that "I don't want to be like everyone else" (a popular "just answer my question" response) doesn't cut the SE mustard - which is why the explanations would need to be reasonably rational. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Aug 3 at 13:08
  • $\begingroup$ @JBH Infected flesh having less nutritional value doesn't work. People don't care about nutritional value when they are starving, normally. Besides, the virus wants to spread but it can't just directly hijack the host (cuz they DUMB) so they have to use other means to make the host behave the way they want. $\endgroup$
    – Hi0401
    Aug 3 at 13:51
  • $\begingroup$ @JBH Okay let me restate my statement... Having infected flesh have lower nutritional value would not work because A. It makes no sense that infected flesh would have little nutrition simply because they were tainted by a virus. If I shot an animal with Covid and cooked it for dinner I suspect that it would have the nutritional value of an uninfected animal of the same species (But I don't get Covid from eating it) and B. Having little nutritional value in infected flesh doesn't work well for the story because it reduces zombie lifespan, real life humans depend on energy from muscles during $\endgroup$
    – Hi0401
    Aug 3 at 14:13
  • $\begingroup$ @JBH starvation. C. Even if it did make sense it wouldn't stop zombies from feasting on one another because humans can't magically tell the nutritional value of food simply by looking (unless it's labeled on the package or something) and even if they could it wouldn't matter to the zombies, because humans don't really care about the nutrition value of what they are eating when they get really hungry as long as it fills them up. For example people in my country had to resort to eating leather belts and tree bark during times of famine. (Even though zombies aren't really hungry, it's just brain $\endgroup$
    – Hi0401
    Aug 3 at 14:17
  • $\begingroup$ damage.) Also the virus obviously has to make the host go after non-hosts to spread itself, that is true. But it's not sentient enough to scream at the person it has infected "That guy across the street is infected too!! DONT EAT HIM!!!" so it has to manipulate the victims' body some other way to achieve it's goal, but I don't know exactly how and that's why I'm asking. I'm also not saying like 'just answer my question' here or 'I don't want to be like everyone else', I'm just asking him for more information and whether if I have to take my question down since it's been answered elsewhere. $\endgroup$
    – Hi0401
    Aug 3 at 14:22
  • $\begingroup$ (Where's my eye rolling emoji when I need it). (a) No brainstorming. (b) What I handed you were obvious answers - just because you don't like them doesn't mean they're not obvious. You set the rules for your world - there is no science-based when it comes to zombies. If you choose to make the virus/bacteria/toxin/zombie-causing-whatever unpallatable to the virus/bateria/etc. That's a perfectly good solution. (c) The point you're making about leather belts and tree bark ... (*Continued*) $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Aug 3 at 16:03
  • $\begingroup$ ... is that your question can't be answered in anyway other than, "you can't have this, they'll eat whatever is in front of them first." And your last complaint was the successful prmise of World War Z (the infected don't attack the infected). (d) And what I'm trying to do is help you understand what you need to do to successfully ask the question. Don't like what I'm recommending? Take it down and ask it somewhere else. No skin off my back. BTW, the correct response is "thank you," not an inadequate explanation of why what I'm recommending is wrong. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Aug 3 at 16:05
  • $\begingroup$ @JBH I've stated valid reasons on why the 'obvious' solutions won't work... and I don't know what you mean by 'no brainstorming' when it appears to me that the whole point of the site is 'brainstorming'. People thinking up solutions to each other's problems is called 'brainstorming'... right? And besides, if zombies can't count as 'science based' because we have to make up EVERYTHING about our own rules, then what's the point of the tag? None of the worldbuilding stuff on this site is real. $\endgroup$
    – Hi0401
    Aug 7 at 11:56
  • $\begingroup$ I'm not trying to start a fight here. Don't act like that's what I'm doing. $\endgroup$
    – Hi0401
    Aug 7 at 11:57
  • $\begingroup$ "Every question must have an answer." If you want to throw many options on the wall to solve your world's problem, that can't happen here. There are votes and you get to check the correct single answer. Brainstorming and expert opinions are not the same thing. You will be getting responses from people with expertise, just like getting second and third opinions from doctors. You do not brainstorm your appendicitis treatment, you seek second opinions. That is what happens here. Your question doesn't seem all that difficult to answer as it stands, is anything here close to an answer? $\endgroup$
    – Vogon Poet
    Aug 22 at 6:55
0
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Lengthening Earth’s Day/Night Cycle

Tags geophysics hard-science post-apocalypse humans science-based

Proposed Question Which of these is the most scientifically plausible way to bring the Earth to a 28- to 30-hour day (i.e. rotation speed) in the “near future” (~200 years) for my post-apocalyptic, world-building concept?

  • A. Asteroid impact?
  • B. Neutron star fly-by?
  • C. A closer moon?
  • D. Internal disruption to Earth’s core (inner or outer)?
  • E. Other?: ____________

NOTES:

• Killing off most (but not all) of humanity is not a problem; it’s preferred.
• Major geophysical disasters expected.
• Earth’s orbit may or may not be affected.
• Tidal locking NOT preferred.
• Reduction in magnetic field is expected.

Sandbox Questions

  1. Is a multiple-choice-type question acceptable? The options are based on the research I’ve already done.
  2. Is an open-ended “Other?” at the end acceptable?
  3. I think this question works here in “Worldbuilding” as it’s the geophysics basis of the world being built, but if you think otherwise, let me know.

Proposed Edit - question wording:

Scientifically plausible way to bring the Earth to a 28- to 30-hour solar day

I'm worldbuilding a post-apocalyptic story set in the near future (~200 years). In my story, the Earth's rotation speed has been slowed down to 28- to 30-hours per day. I'm trying to find the most scientifically plausible way for this to happen.

My research suggests that it may be possible through one of the following events:

  • An asteroid impact
  • A neutron star flyby
  • The moon getting closer to the Earth
  • A disruption of the Earth's core

My setting requirements

The cataclysmic event has wiped out most of humanity, and will have caused a series of major geophysical disasters, including tidal waves, earthquakes, volcanoes, and weather tragedies.

The death toll is estimated that billions of people have been killed. The few survivors are left to pick up the pieces of a shattered world.

Whatever the cause, the event has had a devastating impact on the planet. The Earth's orbit may or may not have been affected, but tidal locking did not happen. However, the event is expected to lead to a reduction in the Earth's magnetic field, which could have a number of consequences, such as increased solar radiation exposure and more erratic weather patterns.

In addition to the above, here are some other likely consequences of the cataclysm, per research:

  • Food shortages and famine
  • Water shortages and drought
  • Disease outbreaks
  • Social unrest and violence
  • Economic collapse
  • Environmental degradation

The above consequences are acceptable side-effects to the alteration of the solar day.

Q: What cataclysm might create this world within 200 years?

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10
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ (a) The hard-science and science-based tags are mutually exclusive. It's worth reading both tag wikis, especially the wiki for hard-science. That tag is ruthless. (b) It is VERY worth your time to review this series of questions from one user asking how to change the rotation of Venus. Almost anything you ask will likely be closed as a duplicate of those questions. (c) Asking if A-D can solve your problem is asking four questions. Asking multiple questions is specifically (*Continued*) $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Feb 25 at 4:29
  • $\begingroup$ ... a reason to close questions. Yes, they're similar, but they also require very different analyses. Thus, the Q as asked, if not closed as a duplicate, would be closed as Needs More Focus (asking more than one question). (d) "E" is dangerous to ask because it's open-ended and Stack Exchange prohibits that (see help center). (e) Multiple-choice questions are only acceptable when the consequence of each option is already known and you're asking for the better option for your given circumstance. In this case, those consequences are not known. (*Continued*) $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Feb 25 at 4:32
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ ... (e) As mentioned, open-ended questions are prohibited. In fact, it's worth your time to carefully read our tour and the following two pages, help center and help center, to better understand the limits of this site. There are limits, some imposed by this Stack, but most imposed by Stack Exchange. (f) Otherwise, yes, this is a great question for here. However, please note that we grew tired of that other user asking question-after-question about changing Venus' rotation. If his Qs don't solve your problem, you'll need to be very specific and very focused. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Feb 25 at 4:34
  • $\begingroup$ @JBH Well, you have certainly given me a lot to consider here. I will do so and appreciate your in-depth response. Thanks. $\endgroup$
    – eHaraldo
    Feb 26 at 18:44
  • $\begingroup$ Is this Sandbox question still active? $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Jun 25 at 20:00
  • $\begingroup$ @ VogonPoet Don't forget to remind people that you edited their question with a proposal edit. This kind of thing is quite unusual here ^^. $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Aug 22 at 8:39
  • $\begingroup$ @Tortliena This question was right up my alley, have a couple just like it myself - I couldn’t let it die. Can we adopt a question? $\endgroup$
    – Vogon Poet
    Aug 23 at 2:55
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ @VogonPoet I personally don't see any issue asking your own very heavily inspired question in the sandbox. However, I believe it's best then to write a new answer here. Otherwise it would feel like you're forcibly grabbing eHaraldo's sheet of paper from their hands to scribble your own things ^^". After all, they may have a different viewpoint, and worse a different writing style. We'll just have to recall ourselves to give the link to your promoted question to eHaraldo if they're very similar to this one. $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Aug 23 at 7:11
  • $\begingroup$ OK. Doing this for the community. $\endgroup$
    – Vogon Poet
    Aug 23 at 14:31
  • $\begingroup$ Is this question still active? $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Oct 26 at 18:14
0
$\begingroup$

Title:

Scientifically plausible way to bring the Earth to a 28- to 30-hour solar day

Doomsday clocks are sort of a common theme in my stories. When I saw @eHaraldo post the sandbox question about slowing down earth’s rotation to create a 30-hour day, and then apparently abandon it; I am now adopting it. Because it’s a good question.

I'm worldbuilding a post-apocalyptic story set in the near future (~200 years). In my story, the Earth's rotation speed has been slowed down to 28- to 30-hours per day. I'm trying to find the most scientifically plausible way for this to happen. Note: the 200 years is approximate, and it allows for the day to be slowed down less abruptly. i.e., **there is no need for a single, abrupt event **.

The scale of the event, given the above numbers will require an input of 30.014 billion zetajoules of energy applied against the earth's rotation through that ≅200 years. It won't all go to slowing the planet, figure something bigger to offset waste.

My research suggests that it may be possible through one of the following events:

  • A barrage/trail of asteroid impacts
  • A neutron star flyby
  • The moon doing something horrible
  • A disruption of the Earth's core

My setting requirements

Given: the cataclysmic event has wiped out most of humanity, and will have caused a series of major geophysical disasters, including tidal waves, earthquakes, volcanoes, and weather tragedies.

Some humans and enough of a biosphere to keep them alive must have survived, but mass devastation of the planet including extinction of many species is acceptable and expected.

The Earth's orbit may or may not have been affected, but tidal locking did not happen.

The above consequences are acceptable side-effects to the alteration of the solar day.

The obvious things:

Answers need not mention the following, it's expected:

  • Food shortages and famine
  • Water shortages and drought
  • Disease outbreaks
  • Social unrest and violence
  • Economic collapse
  • Environmental degradation

Q: What cataclysm might create this world within 200 years?

I assume the tags for this will be [planets] [apocalypse] [solar-system] [science-based]

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4
  • $\begingroup$ 1. Suggest that the "My setting requirements" can be condensed down to "Some humans and enough of a biosphere to keep them alive must have survived, but mass devastation of the planet including extinction of many species is acceptable and expected." 2. Heading is saying "scientifically plausible" but there are no tags for level of realism. 3. Suggest specifying whether it can be done deliberately by very, very powerful aliens, since I can't see a way to leave any biosphere if the change results from a single event. $\endgroup$
    – KerrAvon2055
    Sep 15 at 4:36
  • $\begingroup$ @KerrAvon2055 I've incorporated those suggestions and added some research. I had a very similar question a while back, this might fit that plotline. $\endgroup$
    – Vogon Poet
    Sep 15 at 6:15
  • $\begingroup$ Is this Sandbox question still active? $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Oct 26 at 18:13
  • $\begingroup$ It is for me. Still awaiting feedback on the last edit. $\endgroup$
    – Vogon Poet
    Nov 5 at 0:02
0
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What qualities would an AGI need to gain legal protections today?

Sandbox notes:
This question was closed as "opinion based" however it is important to my many other AGI questions. I need this world built. Any help is great.
- Related question for this world
- What are the parenting options available to species that reproduce by fragmentation?
- What faith do my AI follow that is most belligerent to human traditions and beliefs?
Per the Meta reference on "stoy based closing", this question is on topic, as it asks: "What could cause a government [English common law] to pass such-and-such law [AGI rights] given these societal conditions [an AGI of X definition is created]"

First: assume society is as it is today, British common law; United States might be easiest but any government will suffice.

My story has an AGI species interacting with humans and their definition needs to snub any qualms about, "The police wouldn't do that because legally..."

A good answer provides the "what" portion of the on-topic example question in the Meta about "Why is my question too 'Story-based'"; which is formed as:

What could cause a government to pass such-and-such law given these societal conditions?

Where:

  • What Is the answer you give, narrowly defining qualities of an AGI
  • government is English common law government
  • such-and-such law is, specifically, the Bill of Rights principle of "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" classifying these fictional AGI as "men" in the same way it now classifies women as "men" in modern interpretation.
  • The societal conditions are that a new artificial species has been created and propagated throughout society.

A good question avoids

  1. changes to society
  2. relating this species to current AI or its methods
  3. simplistic "just write a law" answers (laws don't protect anything under common law; blind protections of the law works only in dictatorships)

The Common Law principle that applies here

This is an aside for clarification
Laws of society can only grant rights if there is some means to remedy the violation of the right. For example, a law that protects a human’s right to breathe water can’t be tried in court even if some human finds out they can’t breathe water. The law simply can not possibly “fix” the thing that’s been “taken” from you - an impossible ability to breathe water. That is a ridiculous example, I know, but ridiculous laws do happen. The point is, simply saying you have a “right” to this or that doesn’t create any legal right unless you're in a dictatorship. The common law principle originated in Roman law as ubi jus ibi remedium, “where there is a right, there is a remedy”, and remains in effect today when our courts decide if you have been violated.

But this principle applies to my problem through its logically equivalent contrapositive: Si nulla remedium existit, tunc nulla ius existit. Thus the existence of rights is contingent upon the availability of remedies to enforce and protect those rights. Without a remedy, any purported rights become meaningless and unenforceable. Ergo; we do not put dead murderers on trial, punish insane felons, or sue dead offenders, or punish people who safely shoot their own computer. What could the judge take from one and give to the other to remedy your loss?
A real-world example: we have a right to have our credit information accurately reported. This law is called the Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA). But even if the credit company gives false information about your credit, the court can’t and won't give you anything. Spokeo, Inc. v. Robins (2016) ruled that even though misleading figures were published by the credit card company, the plaintiff could not show that they actually lost anything from inaccurate or incomplete information in their credit reports. There is no right to relief until you have actually “lost” something.
thought experiment
This is about designing a fictional Artificial General Intelligence (AGI), and answering what “ingredient”—for lack of a better word—would afford it rights under existing common law: Let’s assume we invent the asked fictional AGI, and we put them into a mechanical body. Now let’s assume a group lobbies and passes a law that makes it illegal to willfully dismember and destroy the AGI, and treat such an act as a “wrongful death.” They classify this as a crime just like it would be for a human (because again, no laws are changed)

When an AGI is destroyed, someone claiming a relationship to it wants the system to prosecute for wrongful death. Well, there clearly exists a “wrongful death” law in the books because it was passed. But the judge’s first job is to decide if some remedy exists to what was “lost.” This means the judge has to be convinced that at first, the AGI even had a right to life before asking if a life has been lost.

So the question came to me: If an AGI is a computer program, and computer programs can be and are backed up and saved regularly, so effectively they can only be lost by deliberate manipulation of the server; does a computer program have a “right to life?” This doesn't work! Something has to be different about these AGI.

What about our world (specifically, about the qualities of an AGI in this world) needs to be changed

to give artificially generated algorithms and programs a right to life, that could be recognized and fairly remedied in a human justice system? (Answers do not need to fix the problem, the question only asks what needs fixing)

Emphasis again, I don’t believe our real world could possibly argue for the right of an artificial construct to exist, as they currently exist. The question tries to pin down what prevents this, and removes that quality from what we call an "AI" (by changing the AGI, or maybe the environment - anything except the basic principles of jurisprudence)

I can’t state this enough. This question is NOT asking about current AI or anything existing today.

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    $\begingroup$ So you came to the sandbox ^^. I'll be sadly honest, not many people come here, so you probably won't have much help besides mine. I'll try my best though 🐶. If we sum up a bit your situation, since you accumulated a good chunk of small edits and clarifications, it'd be wise to make a brand new V2 to start on a new leaf. However, you mustn't invalidate existing answers, and at the same time I guess you do wanna ask this exact question... We're in a kinda tough spot 😵. Guess the best thing to do right now is to improve it then check whether it should be an edit or a new question altogether. $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Sep 15 at 13:51
  • $\begingroup$ The first thing I'd do is to focus on what this question is about rather than what it isn't about. The main topic should take at least half of the question : This will help people understand what you're looking for and prevent undesired topics to indirectly stain your question. Still, I believe it'll be useful to keep one (and only one) paragraph telling you're not looking for a change of law but a change of A.G.I., if I understand what you want correctly. $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Sep 15 at 13:51
  • $\begingroup$ To improve directly on the "opinion-based" part, the classic thing to do is to tell as accurately as possible what your criteria for a best answer is. This often goes with superlative, e.g. : "What's the safest way to carry and throw marble sized high-explosive grenades?". Note this "superlative" should be defined as clearly as you can : "efficient" and "best" are commonly used, but they often are thought to be too blurry. Might be hard to pull off here, but if you do that it'll definitely win you some points 💯. $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Sep 15 at 14:00
  • $\begingroup$ For the resting rest, I guess we'll have to see how it goes and work from there ^^. I'm not confident enough right now to tell you whether the two things above will get your question reopened, yet I don't have many advices at this point that will ensure whatever you do it'll get better. $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Sep 15 at 14:09
  • $\begingroup$ The entire question is the last sentence; which is a less specific wording of the title: "It’s a fictional AGI that can fit into our society; why does it fit?" (e.g., because it can reciprocate?) i.e., why is it legally protected in existing law. A good answer shows what quality the AGI has that makes it fit (e.g., because it can reciprocate?). I could move all the negatives to a "a good answer avoids.." block at the bottom, The risk is people scanning the first bit & hastily posting answers that invalidate rearranging the question. So the "DO NOT" is critical to avoid crippling non-answers. $\endgroup$
    – Vogon Poet
    Sep 15 at 14:12
  • $\begingroup$ When you talk too much about "it's not X", it means you haven't clearly defined "it's Y". I know you can describe something about what it's not, like "dogs are not insects, not birds, not fishies...", but you'll never really get to the core if you don't define what it is : "a dog is a carnivorous mammal". This will make your question much shorter (so easier to read and understand) and clearer (people will not as easily bind themselves to some off-topic questions just because they were written). This is why this part should be summarized ^^. $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Sep 15 at 14:24
  • $\begingroup$ Updated. The "It's Y" is stated as "artificially generated algorithms and programs," and that's the only unchangeable aspect of them. The other "It's Y" is: "compatible with modern legal protections without changing the law." $\endgroup$
    – Vogon Poet
    Sep 15 at 16:08
  • $\begingroup$ There are many legal systems which all operate differently. Within a legal system each government has their own set of laws which operate differently. Even within a specific legal system and set of laws there can be differing precedence depending on the court that hears such a case. The scope of your question is far too broad without this. $\endgroup$
    – sphennings
    Sep 15 at 17:32
  • $\begingroup$ I cannot think of any system for determining whether a non-person shall be granted the same rights as a person under the law. If such a system exists then that system will have your answer. If such a system doesn't exist then any petition of personhood under the law will require some controversy requiring the adjudication of the courts. This will include persuasive arguments on how to interpret and extend existing laws to cover a novel situation, both for and against the granting of personhood in this specific case. $\endgroup$
    – sphennings
    Sep 15 at 17:38
  • $\begingroup$ In other words in the absence of explicit laws on the subject the traits necessary to grant an AI legal rights will be the result of how a judge chooses to rule based on the competing actions of at least two individuals. Keep in mind that these arguments will be focused on the specifics of the case. The judge, if convinced will then establish an appropriate standard. That much character motivated action has nothing to do with any fact of your world and everything to do with hoy you decide events within your world will play out. Such a question is unsuitable for this site. $\endgroup$
    – sphennings
    Sep 15 at 17:45
  • $\begingroup$ IOW the case would resolve to Virginia v. Loving or State of Tennessee v. John Thomas Scopes in determining personhood. I agree, it would do that. I need the question to steer away from the assumption the answer has to win a Supreme Court ruling on one case. The world needs a definition of a being that could have standing in that court and nothing more. With standing, there is protection; standing isn’t a choice, it’s constitutionally defined - federal in the case of “men created equal”. I chose those tags for that reason. $\endgroup$
    – Vogon Poet
    Sep 15 at 21:09
  • $\begingroup$ "The world needs a definition of a being that could have standing in that court an dnothing more." You don't understand that your problem is a failure to understand the underpinnings of law and how it came to pass. I have a family full of attorneys and it's been fascinating to discuss with them over the decades the "rights" or "needs" of the poor, the homeless, the wealthy.... most of whom aren't treated as "people" today, but as a "class," disassociating and disenfranchising them from the basic rights of "people." That's why I agree with the initial closure reason of ... (*Continued*) $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Sep 16 at 13:59
  • $\begingroup$ ... opinion-based, but it could just as easily be closed for violating the book rule. The problem is that you're looking at law today with a snapshot view and believe that all you need is a paragraph of text to solve your problem. This, despite what paragraphs we have having been developed after millenia of blood and centuries of debate and experimentation. You're asking us to put the cart before the horse and you're expecting some form of definitive answer when, in reality, the development of the legal structure you're looking for would be a novel (and an interesting one) ... (*Continued*) $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Sep 16 at 14:02
  • $\begingroup$ ... all by itself. But, if we are to attempt to ask and answer this question, it must begin in a way that reflects your astute observation of there needing something to lose. Most (if not all) Western law is based on the premise that the person or organization seeking redress can define, not what they could lose, but what they've factually lost due to something in the past and that an argument can be made that what was lost had either intrinsic or factual value. But, most poingant, is the reality that without the ability to convince in court ... (*Continued*) $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Sep 16 at 14:06
  • $\begingroup$ ... that something had intrinsic or factual value, what's left is a revolution to establish in a foundation belief that value. I regret that you appear to be trying to patch an existing system when what you will be required to do is rebuild it. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Sep 16 at 14:06
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This is a brainstorm.

In my world-building project, I'm crafting a deity known for its excess, and I want to develop rituals that convey the dark and macabre aspects of the faith of its worshipers. While researching various rituals and traditions (fictitious and real), I've encountered rituals that invoke a sense of dread and wrongness.

The worshipers live on a planet just like earth and regularly talk with this deity (pray), the deity tries to talk to some, but it only causes indistinct whispers that overtime can drive people insane (once spoken to they never stop). The deity shows approval or disapproval over their action by making a worshiper almost die from excess happiness(IDK if in real life it's possible, in my story it is)/relief/relaxation (anything good), or almost die from too much pain/guilt/anxiety (Anything bad).

Some people the deity talks to are Priests that try to listen to the whispers and decipher them to discover the "True word of the Lord above", no one has succeeded, but it's considered noble to try.

The deity is pure excess and feeds on human emotion, that's why they must perform these rituals.

I'm just trying to avoid the usual Human Sacrifice, as he would consider it boring to kill someone in a quick/humane way, and that meant that particular person wouldn't experience any more emotions he can feed on, and the usual "we give them a cocktail of chemicals that making him feel pain/pleasure"

What rituals would evoke extreme emotion (both good and bad), without leading to any death, and preferably that could be kept for days at a time, it is supposed for people to feel a sense of wrongness/uneasiness when seeing these rituals, even after watching them happen every couple of weeks ?(This is what the deity wants)

Furthermore, I took some inspiration from 40K Warhammer Chaos God Slaanesh (minus the killing), so the limits are nonexistent (no detailed depictions of any kind please, it's against the rules).

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  • $\begingroup$ What makes you think that this question does not have many valid answers given that you state that your research has already encountered multiple rituals that meet your criteria? What makes you think that answers to this question will be based in facts, references or specific expertise, rather than opinions? When drafting questions you may want to consult worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/help/closed-questions to make sure you're asking questions that are suitable for this site. $\endgroup$
    – sphennings
    Oct 26 at 14:21
  • $\begingroup$ @sphennings "I've encountered rituals that invoke a sense of dread and wrongness." and "What rituals would evoke extreme emotion (both good and bad), without leading to any death, and preferably that could be kept for days at a time, it is supposed for people to feel a sense of wrongness/uneasiness when seeing these rituals, even after watching them happen every couple of weeks ?(This is what the deity wants)". Please give them a read, they are 2 different requirements and the latter is way more specific. $\endgroup$
    – Or4ng3h4t
    Oct 26 at 14:28
  • $\begingroup$ Do those additional requirements make it so this question won't have many valid answers? Do they make it so the question will be based in facts, references, or specific expertise rather than opinions? It appears like you're wanting to ask an open ended question where we generate ideas for you. Those are exactly the sort of questions SO intended to discourage with their policies against broad or POB questions. $\endgroup$
    – sphennings
    Oct 26 at 14:35
  • $\begingroup$ @sphennings "What makes you think that answers to this question will be based in facts, references or specific expertise, rather than opinions?" Because I didn't ask for opinions, I asked for Rituals that fit inside a specific specification stated in the question. I didn't ask people what is taboo for them, or examples of it. $\endgroup$
    – Or4ng3h4t
    Oct 26 at 14:39
  • $\begingroup$ @sphennings I understand they are discouraged, not prohibited, there's a huge leap there, but just because it's a brainstorm meaning it is meant to multiple answers, doesn't mean it's too broad or story-based, could you explain to me please how this is Story-Based or too broad ? Would I need to limit the Rituals to only good feelings ? $\endgroup$
    – Or4ng3h4t
    Oct 26 at 14:42
  • $\begingroup$ The set of rituals that can generate heightened emotional states that can last for days and leave observers feeling uncomfortable isn't a small set. That makes the question too broad for this site. You would need to greatly reduce the scope of the question. Try coming up with a ritual on your own. If you think up something that works, great, no need to ask a question. If you hit a roadblock, try asking a more focused question, specifically around resolving the roadblock. $\endgroup$
    – sphennings
    Oct 26 at 14:47
  • $\begingroup$ @sphennings this is the road block, no ritual fits all the requirements I ask, you are deliberately ignoring most of them to make it seem like a bad question. Read this again "What rituals would evoke extreme emotion (both good and bad), without leading to any death, and preferably that could be kept for days at a time, it is supposed for people to feel a sense of wrongness/uneasiness when seeing these rituals, even after watching them happen every couple of weeks ?(This is what the deity wants)" $\endgroup$
    – Or4ng3h4t
    Oct 26 at 14:52
  • $\begingroup$ This question was closed once as POB, and got rejected from the VTRO queue before you deleted it. Those issues will need to be addressed before it can be reopened. Remember that in the tour it says "not every question is suitable for our format" Pick the most promising ritual idea you have, (even if it doesn't work), see what issues you can address on your own, then ask a question focused on resolving that specific issue. That's the level of focus a brainstorming question needs. $\endgroup$
    – sphennings
    Oct 26 at 15:12
  • $\begingroup$ @sphennings since I cannot even describe the ritual, there's no way to ask it here according to you. I'll just wait for someone else to come along and give more tips on what to change. $\endgroup$
    – Or4ng3h4t
    Oct 26 at 15:37
  • $\begingroup$ It seems like you already have a ritual in mind. If you are having a specific problem with it, we may still be able to help with that as long as your question is kept "PG-13". For example if you're unsure how long the ritual could last without chemical assistance, you could ask about the limits of human endurance or rates of neurotransmitter depletion without needing to provide any adult details. $\endgroup$
    – sphennings
    Oct 26 at 15:51
  • $\begingroup$ @sphennings thanks, will do. $\endgroup$
    – Or4ng3h4t
    Oct 26 at 15:56
  • $\begingroup$ I can see where the most recent question on Main came from the comment tree here. That question is too broad as there are many options for keeping a body alive depending on what, specifically, is shutting down. Because you're not specifying the condition of the body (in that new question as a result of this one), you're just asking for list of descriptive items to tell a story, not an application-of-technology question about a specific problem. Brainstorming is discouraged. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Oct 26 at 18:12
0
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Title: Is this time travel mechanic plausible?

I was trying to ask a question for a novel I am trying to make, but it was closed for many reasons. I need help making it ask-worthy. This is my question with various revisions that I made after it was closed, but with some parts remaining in hopes that they can still remain in the finished question.

I am trying to make a novel, and I wanted to know if this is a good hard science theory for time travel. Given that (as far as I know) white holes are theorized to have negative mass; and that anything with negative mass travels faster than the speed of light*, would that mean that white holes can travel faster than the speed of light? If not, why? This is disregarding causality, I already have a workaround.

*1 : This is due to the same principle that makes massless particles travel the speed of light. I believe it has something to do with inertia, in which case this would make sense, but either way, this was used in a theory for tachyons and was not criticized.

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    $\begingroup$ (a) There is no such thing as hard science in regard to time travel. There is not even a suggestion of proof for time travel. Asking this question in any context other than science-fiction will raise the risk of closure and down votes. (b) You start by saying you're trying to set a rule for time travel, but you don't describe one. Your question is if the supposition of negative mass (ficitonal) justifies FTL (fictional) of white holes (fictional). (c) Tachyons are also fictional, so upholding them as the rationale for treating your question as hard science fails your intent. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Nov 1 at 16:50
  • $\begingroup$ Your biggest problem is that you're missing about three years of college-level classes in astrophysics and mathematics. You want us to provide, not just a realistic solution, but a real solution to a problem that you don't know isn't real due to the lack of that education - and Stack Exchange is not the place to get it, even in the form of sound bites. If you step away from insisting that all this be real and ask the question as "In my world negative mass exists, which leads to white holes ... $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Nov 1 at 16:52
  • $\begingroup$ moving FTL, which leads to the following detailed explanation for time travel, is this consistent?" then we have a question we can work with for this Stack. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Nov 1 at 16:52
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ Plausible is a subjective quality that has nothing to do with the facts of your world but the knowledge of your audience and how receptive they are to how you present your world. We're here to help you establish facts about your world not determine how people will feel about your presentation of them. Remember that magic and FTL are both physical impossibilities and yet their existence in well written works of fiction does nothing to detract from our enjoyment of them. Similarly there is no level of plausibility that will salvage a poorly written story. $\endgroup$
    – sphennings
    Nov 1 at 20:57
  • $\begingroup$ @JBH The only reason that tachyons and faster-than-light travel are believed to be impossible is because they are believed to violate the laws of physics (specifically causality), but if the fifth dimension were brought up, (comprising of many timelines) then causality can be avoided, as changing the past is impossible, you just follow along in a branch. $\endgroup$
    – WhatsYourIQ192
    Nov 2 at 12:47
  • $\begingroup$ And as I have explained in another thread, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Plus, even if there were not any theorized ways to create these things (there are), it is a science fiction novel. Any part the author can’t explain just gets ignored. $\endgroup$
    – WhatsYourIQ192
    Nov 2 at 12:49
  • $\begingroup$ I am not using tachyons to prove my idea, I am using the accepted parts of the theory, which is unrelated to the actual tachyons. $\endgroup$
    – WhatsYourIQ192
    Nov 2 at 12:51
  • $\begingroup$ I provided the solution, I want you to tell me if it makes sense. And because positive mass exists, negative mass must exist as well. Which means that ftl must exist, and wormholes could exist. Also, I am not insisting that these things exist, they have never been proven, yet they have never been disproven either, which is perfect for a hard science sci fi novel. $\endgroup$
    – WhatsYourIQ192
    Nov 2 at 12:55
  • $\begingroup$ Your turn, @sphennings. Magic, which has a variable definition, usually means something that violates the laws of thermodynamics. That is more than likely a physical impossibility. FTL, however, is already possible with negative mass, and we have no good evidence that it is impossible, at least with the fifth dimension. So as long as negative mass is impossible, true FTL is too. So before you say it is impossible, you have to disprove negative mass. Feel free to do so. $\endgroup$
    – WhatsYourIQ192
    Nov 2 at 12:59
  • $\begingroup$ I wanted someone to tell me if this was formatted right. Save the criticisms for the actual question. $\endgroup$
    – WhatsYourIQ192
    Nov 2 at 13:00
  • $\begingroup$ The sandbox is used to help you improve your questions, this includes ensuring that you are asking questions that is appropriate for this site. There are more significant issues than formatting with your question. Asking "Is X plausible?" is not a worldbuilding question and should not be asked on this site. Please remember that not every question about worldbuilding is suitable for this site. Questions that are too broad or opinion based are also not permitted and will be closed. We don't want to waste our time addressing formatting issues on questions inappropriate for this site. $\endgroup$
    – sphennings
    Nov 2 at 13:16
  • $\begingroup$ @WhatsYourIQ192 Sorry for the delay. As elements gathered from another post indicates... Some viewpoint about new users, I'd like to first tell you I'm sorry about the way you're currently being received in the sandbox. This isn't probably not what you were looking for when coming here. Relativity theory is not my forte, but I'll try to help you reach your goals and improve your work anyway. Just give me some time! $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Nov 2 at 16:56
  • $\begingroup$ Ok, the first thing I can easily suggest is to remove notions of hard-science in your question. Don't worry, it will not affect your work. As the other two said, hard-science is... Harder than you think. Hypothetical objects (like white holes) rarely have a place there, as no one have managed to prove their existence. It's more some kind of mathematical thoughts. Removing this term will effectively reduce the ire from people who expect something ultra-hard. [...] $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Nov 2 at 17:44
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ I provided the solution, I want you to tell me if it makes sense. It doesn't make sense from a Real World perspective, which is what you're asking us to accept. You're really fighting this. Per the help center, our goal is to help you develop the rules of an imaginary world. You can set those rules as you wish. You have not explained time travel, so there are no rules for us to judge. You are asking of a hypothesized Real World condition can exist. What are you expecting? The answer is "we don't know." Now, if you want to set a rule for your imaginary world.... $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Nov 3 at 3:02
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ And before you get going on that last comment, please try to remember that validating a "good hard science theory" is not our job. We will gladly help you develop and consistently use rules of an imaginary world of your own creation. We're not going to let you ask on Main if your strong belief in a hypothesis is "good hard science." $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Nov 3 at 3:06
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$\begingroup$

I have posted this question in sandbox because:

  1. I'm not sure whether this is more suited to worldbuilding or the math stack-exchange site.
  2. This question, while simple to me, may feel convoluted because it's asking for a general algorithm as opposed to a single answer to a single query.

Title: "Simple model for trait propagation in a population"

In a worldbuilding project of mine, humans can have a pseudo-magical trait that, if present in either mother or father, is 100% of the time passed on to a child (unlike genetic traits, which are generally more complicated than that).

In order to be able to estimate how quickly this trait is propagated in a given population of humans, I'd like to have a simplified model that I can apply to different sizes of populations.

I have the rules I would need to run a simulation of this model, and I could probably program it if I have to. But I suspect that there's likely to be a mathematical/probability-based way to do it without needing the simulation, and thought I would ask if anyone here would be able to point me in the right direction.

The model

Suppose we have a fixed population size of 2n, consisting of n males and n females. Associated with each member of the population is a simple true or false value indicating the presence of the trait.

Each generation, the males and females are randomly paired off and each pair produces exactly 2 offspring - one male and one female. These offspring are the (exactly 2n) members of the next generation, and each is given a value of true if and only if either or both of their parents had it.

With the above model, I could run simulations to answer questions like,

  • "For a population of 1000 with 1 trait-positive individual, how many generations would it take (on average) for the whole population to be trait-positive?"
  • "For a population of 500 with 100 trait-positive males and 250 trait-positive females, how many individuals (on average) would be trait-positive after 3 generations?"

The question

Is there a mathematical algorithm or approach I could use to answer these kinds or questions, using this model, without needing to simulate it generation-by-generation?

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    $\begingroup$ Hi Qami! Just on the surface of things, I would say remember that WB.SE is for the rules of your world: how things are the way they are, how they work, what might be done with them. Since you've already got the world and have already determined a specific rule of your world, I would argue that WB is not the right forum for this question. That said, I'm sure you would get an answer here! I think math.se would be the better choice, though. At least at first: if they have a conniption about your scenario, I would not complain if they exported the question to WB. $\endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    Nov 21 at 21:51
  • $\begingroup$ Cool problem. At it's core you're asking a straight math problem and will probably get better mileage asking mathematicians about it. While I wouldn't recommend asking it on the main site I've definitely been nerd snipped by this problem. I'd love to see what comes of this if you post it on a math or statistics focused exchange. You could also post it in the worldbuilding chat and see if anyone wanders by and gets distracted. $\endgroup$
    – sphennings
    Nov 21 at 22:18
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    $\begingroup$ Past the first generation there will always be an equal number of men and women with the trait. The maximum growth of the trait in a generation will be a doubling, with the average being a function of how likely it is for there to pair off two trait having individuals each generation. $\endgroup$
    – sphennings
    Nov 21 at 22:23
  • $\begingroup$ @sphennings You've hit the nail on the head with the second comment, about the initial doubling and diminishing returns as the proportion increases. This is exactly what I want to get the math for. I'll wait another day or so to see if I have more input, but otherwise I'll post on math.stackexchange. $\endgroup$
    – Qami
    Nov 22 at 1:30
  • $\begingroup$ While it's technically worldbuilding (you're indirectly asking how the world is at some time "t" because of that trait), you've contrived the problem so much to a math model it will not be accepted here. So indeed maths.SE it is. Let's just hope that they are not seeing only the world, not the maths (some on other sites have tunnel vision on that), because the worst thing that can happen to you is get migrated to WB:SE, then closed here for being off-topic and migrated back to never be reopened again... $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Nov 22 at 9:03
  • $\begingroup$ Do note that because eventually everyone will have the trait, it will probably not be considered the best worldbuilding question out there. Indeed, and that's what Elemtilas showed, people tend to think the world in absolute terms, rather than something that evolves over time. That's a lot due to the fact worlds are made for stories, and stories are set in a specific point of time, giving this "absolute" feeling. Most changes to the world are then made by the story, rather than an ominous, unwavering world rule. $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Nov 22 at 9:06
  • $\begingroup$ If you want to have more prior research, there's a youtube channel called Primer which focuses a lot on evolution of traits within people, with funny looking blobs and a bit of Unity Engine. I'm not sure you'll find the formulas you want there, but it can really help understand the various cases of evolution. $\endgroup$
    – Tortliena
    Nov 22 at 9:10
  • $\begingroup$ To be clear - and using my starting conditions rather than yours - we might have 500 magic people in a population significantly larger than 500. Those 500 are guaranteed to have two and only two offspring regardless who they're paired with. Both offspring are guaranteed to be magic so long as one parent is magic. So, best case first gen result is 2500 and worst case is 1000 and since a a random number is involved it's a random result between those two limits (for the first gen). Did I get that right? $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Nov 22 at 16:02
  • $\begingroup$ I expect respondents will complain about the offspring condition of your model. If no couple can have more or less than two offspring, you have zero population growth and decline other than the first few until your average max age begins removing non-breeding pairs, in which case this is a model that will only answer the question "how many generations until my population is X% saturated?" $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Nov 22 at 16:08
  • $\begingroup$ Frankly, I'd research virus propagation in populations. There must be a statistical estimator for that purpose - whole games have been made based on the concept. In other words, this problem is fundamentally solved. You'll need to reword the question to remove the magic part of it ("I have a trait that propagates according to the following rules...") but I recommend you ask on Biology or Medical Sciences. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Nov 22 at 16:13
  • $\begingroup$ Final advice: the problem with random numbers is that they only work statistically over large groups of something: people, time, etc. In other words, a software program would likely churn out the same result for your first bulleted result if asked multiple times... but it'll churn out a different result each time for the second bullet example because three generations isn't long enough for the effects of random initial conditions to wash out. Virus propagation estimators work because propagation works randomly within the space of hours but the simulations are looking at weeks or months. $\endgroup$
    – JBH
    Nov 22 at 16:21
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    $\begingroup$ @Tortliena Thank you for your feedback! The fact that everyone will eventually have the trait is indeed by design and is part of the evolution of this world. I'm planning many stories that take place in this world, at different points in its history, and the purpose of this mathematical model is just to help me maintain consistency over the timeline and the different populations that are exposed to the trait at different times. $\endgroup$
    – Qami
    Nov 22 at 17:59
  • $\begingroup$ @JBH Thank you for your feedback! There are of course many considerations - biological, cultural, demographics, and more - that will need to be factored in to get more useful estimates. This model is very deliberately simplified and unrealistic by itself. It's simply intended to be a baseline upon which to apply these other considerations. I like your idea of trying on medical sciences - I'll check there if math.se doesn't pan out! $\endgroup$
    – Qami
    Nov 22 at 18:03
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How to recreate a "land" harp that can work in the deep sea?

How to recreate a "land" harp that can work in the deep sea?

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  • $\begingroup$ @JBH Thanks for the heads up. I really do try to avoid that, I try to be clear enough with my questions. I just need to work on my communication skills. $\endgroup$
    – Thunderhammer
    Nov 16 at 0:58
  • $\begingroup$ Plausible is a subjective metric. We're not here to answer questions that are based in opinions. $\endgroup$
    – sphennings
    Nov 18 at 1:58
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    $\begingroup$ @JBH Thanks for your help as well! Away I go! :D $\endgroup$
    – Thunderhammer
    Nov 23 at 16:34

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